Last saturday night, i had one of the toughest conversations of my life. when you really love people and you really love God and the people you love don't agree with the God you love, it hurts. A lot.
I think conversations like last saturday's are pretty much absolutely essential for the growth of people who call themselves christians. I am starting to believe that without those conversations, follows of Jesus (like me) won't be able to grow right. Maybe you will grow, but you probably grow stunted. Stunted and slowly. Conversations like last weeks speed you up, make you grow right and straight. But with growth, pain.
Let me start where it starts. Last saturday came after weeks of prayer. Prayer that God would use me outside of my comfortable christians circles, outside of my consistent busyness, beyond the place i had been for so many months. And i am telling you, God answers prayers. Me and my new guy were meeting with a couple of dear friends for dinner downtown. After light introductory banter, laughter, beer analysis, and some fine conversation, my self and my friend somehow landed on the topic of individuality vs group mentality. As my friend spoke of groups, he brought up Christianity as an example of a group mentality. He, not being a Christian, had some criticisms for the way christanity approached individualism and disliked the way that Christians claimed to be "one" without recognizing the deep complexities of the individual. This quickly developed into an intense, often heated, discussion of Christianity.
As my friend spoke openly about his dislike for many aspects of the Christian faith and the idea of there even being a God at all, I could feel my heart quicken. It's pace slowly but surely fastened and i told it, "no, heart, this won't be one of those conversations, no need to get all worked up... this will get solved soon here and we will move on to easier topics..." But i was wrong.
With my heart rater increasing, my friend began to broach the idea/problem of christians claiming to have the exclusive knowledge of the way to heaven, and even questioned whether there was a heaven or afterlife at all, or if it was just a selfish way for us to look beyond the life we are given now and hope for something more. Other ideas brought up were the bible as myth- a good set of ways to live, but questionable as an actual account of history; the existence of God as an outward projection of our inner moral standards; the difference between the God of the Old Testament and New Testament; Jesus forgiving everyone vs. just those who believe in him now. I feel like i want to address all of these ideas in indivdual blogs, which i might do-- but for now, i want to give the story of the night. Maybe at some point we can dive in and you all can give me your thoughts.
So, as my friend brought up these ideas, I felt like i was swimming/drowning-- trying to keep my head afloat. You see, my friend is quite smart-- very articulate, very passionate. As he brought each of these things up one by one, i felt so inadequate to even begin trying to get into a deeper discussion of the points he was making. To some of what he said, i was able to engage him and try to give an answer to what he was questioning, but for so many things, i just had to admit to not completely understanding it all.
One of the major realizations that i had during this conversation was the idea that christianity is seen by so many people outside of the church as a series of moral ideals or rules. That by following a set of moral codes, one can earn their way into good graces with God and therefore get into heaven. And beyond this moral standard, there is not much more to christianity than a judgemental finger pointing at most of society and an agressive political agenda that alienates more than unites people (though i guess those two things can be put under the morality heading). A defining moment of the night was when my friend point blank asked me the most difficult question i think i ever have to answer: if he lives his whole life as a good person, living by the standards Jesus lays out for life but not necessarily believing that Jesus was the savior and the only way to eternal life, was Jesus going to deny him a place in heaven when he died? Even now, its hard to breathe and hard to think about that answer.
As insane as it sounds, and as little sense as it makes to my finite little mind, i don't think morality gets us into God's good graces and i don't think being a good person is what is most imporant in life. I hate that this concept has become a bit of a christianese catchphrase, but i know no other way than this to describe it.... its not about rules, its about relationship. From what i can understand and what stands up to experience and what is laid out in scripture, God cares first about our relationship with him, is primarily concerned with us loving him and desiring him and having faith in him. out of this relationship, our morality is formed, our being a "good person" comes into play.
Trying to articulate this idea of having a relationship with an invisible God who is outside of time and space is not easy. I felt crazy trying to explain it to my friend, who seemed both angry with my seemingly pat answer and confused at why his friend, whom he had known for 8 years, would answer that yes, she believed in a God who would not accept him without him having put faith in Jesus during his time on earth.
ah, this kills me, just writing it out. i am aware that anyone could read these words, even my friends from that night, and be angered, confused, disillusioned with what i am saying here. and i question the sanity of it all, sometimes. i mean, who hasn't? but somehow, in these last 6 years of living in relationship with God and trying to love him and lay down my life to be used as his,
i realize the truth that my ways are not his ways, my thoughts are not his thoughts.
more soon....
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22 comments:
Kristin, I really appreciate you writing about your experiences like this. This topic has been weighing heavily on my heart for some time now. The popular idea by non-believers that the bible is a bunch of stories and myths to guide people to a better way of living, as well as the other parts of your discussion addressed are very difficult. I have found myself in similar discussions with people much smarter than I and walk away feeling completely defeated afterwards. A friend from overseas asked me how God who is able to do all is able to manifest himself to people all over the world. And with that, turn away from close friends of his who are Buddhist and live the most devout, good lives he knows. Of course my response was far from enlightening :( Anyway, I would give anything to be able to reach nonbelievers whose minds often interfere with their hearts...they are the hardest ones. The more I study and the harder I try to garner answers or adequate responses, the more questions I find and the cycle goes on.
I am reminded though that God will continue where we left off and that it is the love guiding our answers that speaks the loudest. I look forward to any possible future blogging on this topic. Gob Bless.
Kristin,
You describe a very difficult situation. It is always uncomfortable to be faced with a direct question about one's salvation. Not only is it sad to tell the person that despite being a good person, they will not be going to heaven without a faith and trust in Jesus, but that statement tends to place the person in such a defensive/outraged state that logical conversation is no longer possible. It sounds like your friend is somewhat like me, a thinker not a "feeler." The only way to get through to him is to appeal to his intellect, but even then you can hit a snag. If he is similar to how I was (and often still am), pride can come into play and block any intellectual progress. It is easy for him to believe (as I did) that he has found some sort of fatal flaw or logical contradiction that renders the Christian faith null and void. That feeling is magnified when faced with Christians who have little "reason for the hope that [they] have" (you are clearly not a part of this group). Unfortunately, this is the vast majority of Christians (or at least the ones we see on TV). I remember how astounded I was when I found out that many of my supposedly unaswerable questions actually had answers. The answers were not necessarily definitive, but there were some good possibilities. Of course, it is not just a matter of talking to someone who has good knowledge (he was talking to you, after all), but the questioner has to be ready to actually listen. He may find himself in a situation (as I did) where many of his main objections have been refuted, but he does not wish to accept the implications of the answers.
The idea of Christianity simply being about "being good" is strange. I wonder where it began, perhaps in legalistic churches? I suppose the idea was a struggle even in the early church (those who felt they were still under the law versus those who understood the full implication of Christ's death and resurrection). It is certainly a myth perpetuated by the media. Christians are popularly viewed as being fingerpointers and so, perhaps for that reason, Christianity is repugnant to many people. What could be so vile about a faith that simply says, "Trust in Me and you shall be free"? The argument can be made that people are not disliking Christ so much as the church and to a large extent that is probably true, but I wonder if many people like Jesus for what they perceive Him to be? It seems that Jesus is often thought of as an uber-hippie who said, like the Beatles, "Love, love, love." People often remember that "God so loved the world that He sent His one and only Son," but forget the part about "that whoever trusts in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." People seem to really like the things Jesus said that make Him sound like Buddha and that make Him sound like a model of "tolerance," but tend to gloss over the fact that He is a righteous Judge. I wonder if the common ideas (among non-believers and most likely some believers) about Jesus are very accurate. On the other hand, love is the thing that draws us to Jesus and anything that creates a longing to find out more about Jesus can't be bad.
I agree with what you say about the Christian faith sounding a little crazy when trying to describe it to a skeptic. I had a long conversation with one of my Grandmothers fairly recently (she is not a believer) where I was trying to describe the reason Jesus had to shed His blood to pay for our sins and at times I was thinking, "This must sound absolutely insane to her." It is so hard to communicate to others about the faith, but we must keep trying. All we can do is continue to pray for our loved ones who do not know Christ and continue to deepen our knowledge and relationship with Him.
"...but for so many things, i just had to admit to not completely understanding it all."
Who knows, that may be the best thing you said all night.
Wow, I understand the struggle... and honor your conversation with the person. I agree with jeannette's last paragraph... God will pick up where we left off. That is not to play down preparation in asking (and sometimes answering) hard questions, but it is a reminder that God cares more about that conversation than even you do.
I think we should look at the basis of what it means to have a 'faith'.
The writer of Hebrews is unequivocal: faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Heb 11.1)
And what is that Faith? If we take Paul at his word, it isn't this or that in 'Christianity'. that's later. The earliest communities were responding to the preaching of a very particular message:
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth; 27 but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption; 31 therefore, as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord." (1 Cor 17-31)
Now I don't want to make this sound 'anti-intellectual'. Actually it's a mindful proposition. God chose to reveal himself in the person of Jesus Christ, who we know as the messiah of self-emptying Love, even to the point of a shameful death. the 'power of the cross' is also the 'scandal of the cross'. Literally, it's power is that it confronts our notions of how things work and offers a totally different view of truth.
The scandal of the cross creates a list of paradoxes that challenge how we think of reality itself: Death can be life, foolishness can be wise, self-emptying can be power. It is because of Christ's submissiveness and choice not to reveal God through power and intellect, which are the ways of the world, and instead to show us that God has a very different vision for us - he created us for self-giving Love, freely chosen acceptance of and discipline towards his commandments, and ultimately not quantifying 'the good life' through our own views of practicality.
This is the vision for us that God has proposed through His own dwelling among us, in contrast to our own wisdom which ended in immorality and idolatry.
think of our society. Billions are spent on self-help, self-esteem, self-impowerment, self-awareness, self-conciousness, etc. God is saying that if you want to find yourself, you must first die to yourself and live unto God's way, which is sacrificially giving.
This is the reality we have hope in. We have trusted with everything we have - our hearts, minds, and spirits - that God will vindicate this vision of us. That it is correct, despite all worldly wisdom to the contray, which would have us believe that it's all about us and getting ours.
I think engaging overly much in intellectual banter on the message tends to 'empty the cross of its power', because it assumes that we are not contingent on the power of the holy spirit.
Preach the scandal of the cross and share why you believe that this must be right... why this challenge to the world's wisdom makes sense in your own life. That is the continuing presence of Christ - how he has transformed our lives. for lo he is with us, even unto the end of the age (Matthew). It's not an event in history, but its a spiritual power that still confronts the world, and still calls all the idols and Pharaoh's to let his people go.
you see I also am an intellectual, and I had to be brought to see that the beauty of the Christian message is this: I would never have written it that way. I would have been sensible. I would have kicked the Roman's ^&* and shown the people in my grandeur that I am right. I would not have appealed to their sense of altruistic love. And that is why God, and not Ray, is the author of this story.
Kristin,
THANK YOU for sharing this with us. This touches on SO many things, but I’ll try to keep my thoughts to just a couple.
As far as your friend’s frustration with Christianity, well, I’d have to say I agree with some of his gripes. It’s sad and unfortunate, really, in that I think that when we try to evangelize to others, most of those conversations begin with defending Christianity as a whole.
There’s a chapter in Donald Miller’s book Blue Like Jazz where he tells about a time in college where a group of Christians set up a booth (at a VERY secular institution) that said “Confessional Booth” on the sign. When people walked in, perhaps they were sarcastically expecting to confess something to somebody (i.e. a mock Catholic priest, etc.), but were surprised to encounter someone that apologized to THEM for Christianity’s past faults, misrepresented image, judgmentalism, legalism, and failure to be accepting and loving to others. Miller and his Christian friends spoke to many that night, and what came of it were waves of forgiveness, healing, and many new founded fresh, authentic relationships with non-believers. Not long thereafter, four bible studies were going on at the campus that primarily consisted of people that didn’t consider themselves Christians.
I appreciate that Dan is coming out with a book called “I Like Jesus, But Not the Church.” I hope that this will help communicate that, indeed, our faith should be centered in an intimate, personal relationship with the person of Jesus. It starts there, and, I believe, it should end there.
It’s a harsh reality that many “good people” may not go to heaven. Oprah Winfrey, for example, a woman who has done SO much good in this world, will not be in heaven for eternity if she died today because she does not believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father (THIS is powerful: http://www.watchman.org/oprah.htm). And like you said, it’s especially hard when the people we love dearly and are close to us don’t share our beliefs either. We don’t understand, and it hurts to the core.
As far as how you talk to your friend, I think there are a couple of things he should grasp:
1. The seriousness of sin. The whole concept of sin is mind-boggling when you think about it (it certainly is to me), and is a term that is almost exclusively used in the Judaic and Christian traditions (this is an interesting piece: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin). In other words, most people don’t know what sin is, hence they don’t believe it exists. I think if we can somehow get our heads and hearts around this topic when we talk to people, to begin to communicate that our wickedness deserves to be put to death for what we’ve done. Scripture clearly tells us that the wages of sin is death. DEATH. You and I deserve to die. That alone strikes a chord with me. However, God’s love for the world, manifested in the birth, life, death, resurrection and the atonement of sin in the person of Jesus Christ, gives us life eternal, a life full of grace, peace, joy, hope, and love. Only the belief in Jesus’ sacrifice can saved us from death. I don’t know if you can get more black and white than that.
2. Ultimately, we can talk intellectually about apologetics, etc. until we are blue in the face, but it truly does come down to one thing: BELIEF.
If I may reference D Miller one more time, one of the people in the booth asked him about his own faith: “You really believe in Jesus, don’t you?” he asked me. “Yes, I think I do. Most often I do. I have doubts at times, but mostly I believe in Him. It’s like there is something in me that causes me to believe, and I can’t explain it.”
I think I fall within those same parameters in my own faith. But I believe. I can’t necessarily explain it, but I just do. And I know that you believe.
Kristin, I think YOU are in such a wonderful position because you remember clearly how you were before you accepted Christ just a few years ago. You also are fortunate because many of your friends are not Christians. You truly are being light in the darkness. You are living out the Great Commission on a daily basis in your inner circle. I am truly envious in that respect, being someone who grew up a Christian all of his life.
God has given you a testimony, a personal story to tell that only you uniquely can share and minister with others. What a blessing. Never lose sight of that.
Continue to be a loving friend to your friend. Maybe see if he’d give Blue Like Jazz a read. Pray for him, and let God do the rest.
Christ came to save the Church which happens to be made of his children. This anti-Church, anti-Christian stuff is anti-Biblical we are to be connected to the communion of saint through a local church. Christ will come for his Bride which is the Church. Give your friend the Word of God and not a paraphrase but a true translation of The Bible and dump Miller - you might as well give a stone if that is the best advise you can give!
anonymous, are you insinuating that church is what makes a true believer?
Anyone can go to church, but church in and of itself does not define "believer".
It is the relationship, and that is personal whether or not someone attends church once a week for like 2 hours at the most.
It occurs to me, that heaven is not a think up your best fantasy, and multiply it by infiniti and that is what it will be like. Heaven seems to be this place where everything is under God's reign and we will understand a complete joy that is found in our maker, which will enable us to delight in our Lord for all of eternity. My time on earth is a holistic way of aligning myself as a person who recognizes Jesus and lives in a way that I might be able to delight and please my Lord by the way I live my life. (Romans 12:1) This is my worship. It seems to me, that merely living by a set of moral codes, and asking the question if I will still go to heaven, is missing the point. I must first ask myself what is heaven like. If I want nothing to do with Jesus and my maker on earth. Then wouldn't heaven where everything is under God's reign and my joy would be complete by submitting to the Lord seem to me more like hell?
No, The Church is the Body of Christ and only true believers are a part of it.
Yes, you will find believer and unbeliever going to church and even joining church. Church is what distinguishes and sets believers apart even if there happens to be weeds.
It is relationship, personal, and the collective Body of Christ.
You are saved by God thru Christ from the Wrath of God and you are seperated and bound to all others that have received the same. You are and will be a part of the Church Universal for all eternity.
If a person doesn't see the need for the Body then mostlikely they are not true believers.
anonymous, or that their allegiance is to God alone. Sorry but this commuinity thing is great but a person can be a believer without depending on the Body.
anonymous, further, for someone that writes so well on matters he/she attests to know so much about and if being a part of the Body means putting down other believers (in your words:
"you might as well give a stone if that is the best advice you can give"
Thank you, but I'll pass.
I will agree with anonymous to this extent: Salvation is mediated through a body of believers. So much of what it means to be a Christian is dependent on corporate transmission of the faith to us. Even the Bible is the product of the Church. Early Christian writers understood life 'in the Church' as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The Church is Christ's Body. To hate the Chuch is to hate Christ himself.
I think we concentrate too much on the verticle aspect of salvation (Me/God) and not enough on the horizontal level (Me/My fellow human). St. Paul would certainly not be in agreement with such a notion.
The Christian faith is about relationships, but relationships ultimately lead back to corporate faith, which in turn leads to the Church.
But that begs us to ask the question "what is the Church?"
Still, I don't think this helps Kristin out much, so I'll drop the point.
you know, I have trouble with the concept that someone who does not accept Jesus during his/her time on earth is lost. I am not advocating for the theory that there are many ways to heaven - definitely not. Jesus said, "I am the way... no one comes to the Father except through me." But he didn't say the only time is now, today, this minute, which is so often touted. Thomas didn't believe Jesus had been resurrected until he saw/felt the wounds, but he was not "lost". His experience and faith was less rich for his doubt, but Jesus still accepted him and loved him and counted him as one of his own. John the apostle knew and followed Jesus from a young age - definitely to be with Jesus in paradise; however the guy on the cross beside Jesus believed for a few minutes and got the same. Moses and Elijah never heard of Jesus, though they had a powerful relationship with God and were also taken up to be with the FAther. Timing is never an issue for God, who exists outside of time. The way is Jesus, but the time is unimportant - and maybe that is a dangerous thing to talk about, making people complacent or casual. I am no expert and no authority but he said that he is not content that even one be lost and I believe it.
By the way, I agree with your thought that conversations like those are the way to grow. or at least make you stronger.
Roland that is a good question. “What is the church?”
After this, I’m out.
I would like you to honestly step back and ask yourself this, if you were in a town that did not have the church or anything like the church you currently attend (the kind you go to on Sundays) would you got to just ANY church and attend ANY small group? I think it would be foolish to do so. If the values and beliefs of a church do not witness with your own, why go? Maybe my church IS the couple believers I have formed friendships with and the fellowship we have; and not the kind that meets once a week in a small group setting. I am grateful that our Lord knows my heart and knows that I don’t “hate the Chuch [Body]” because I am often put off and in disagreement with believers from my own experience.
I can not stress enough the importance of the vertical relationship Roland. We can dissect and chop this to pieces and it still comes down to that. In the end, the Church doesn't save me. I could go as far as saying that I have seen for myself how the Church, the Body, and the ultimate dependence on this form of fellowship has actually been a deterrent for some believers. People who were distracted by the horizontal relationships that it stunted their vertical relationship. I could say more, but ultimately we all have limited scope formed from our own small experiences and distinct God given personalities.
My hope is to challenge some of your views and stop and think about things before writing them off as false. A believer, such as myself, one who gravitates to sole meditation and worship with my Father, is still a believer. I don’t hate the Body, and the Body is still not God Roland. I do love God more though, that may be wrong but I do. I am put off and often disgusted by acts of the Body, but I am truly in love with Christ, and Christ in them, however shrouded He has become in their midst.
Allegiance to God alone? Yes that is what the Church/Body of Christ is centered around - the glorification of God.
Depending on the body? 1 Cor. 12:12-31 might be a good start for you to read.
Putting down or stone? I share truth in love to believer and unbeliever alike. Truth and or correction can hurt sometimes but in this matter of the role of the Church based on Scripture you can not believe that you can be a follower of Christ seperate from the body - it just isn't possible.
To the young lady making comments about becoming a Christian after death - please.... You really need to read the Word of God.
That is whats wrong with the emergent/conversation you just come up with unbiblical crazy talk.
I know anonymous will say I am putting down but what I am putting down is unbiblical heresies of a generation that trys to make up their own rule as they go and call it Christianity when it is not!
Biblical Discussion is the key - Knowing the Word of God. Truth does set one free!
Although I can't agree with everything, the second anonymous is basically correct. Individual believers are not, in any classical Christian sense, full believers. Salvation has always entailed both communal involvement and discipline.
Being in isolation from the body, which is the Church, is to cut oneself off not only from the Church's place for them (the only level we usually think on), but also their obligation to the Church.
Where there is no disciplined group of believers there is only anarchy, opinions, and suggestions.
To Love God is to Love others. that's why the Great Commandment is in two parts. It's also why Christians have always practiced Communion, which is not only being a community with God, but also with one another. (1 Cor 11 is a good starting place). Also, take a quick glance at problem solving in the book of Matthew - it's totally community-centered.
"I am" is the great misnomer of post-Enlightenment Western society. In pretty much every other culture back to time immemorium, and certainly to biblical Israel, there is absolutely no "I am", only "we are". Your identity is a role in community, and the Christian community is no different.
This is why there's all that language about "bearing one another's burdens" (Matthew, Galatians). If we were never burdens, then the evangelist and the apostle never would have said such things.
And the section the previous writer gave from 1 Cor 12 is also spot on - Even the finest hand or leg detached from the overall body is just a bloody mess.
Another scripture to add to the importance of the Body of Christ -
Ephesians 2:14- specifically verse 19 which speaks of the Church in the terms of "household of God" and you can read onthrough 22.
Wow, I see everyone's perspective and I am torn by some things. I moved to my current residence a couple years ago and I didn't know a soul. I started working full time after a few months and my schedule didn't really give me much of an option in terms of being part of a community in the Church and having fellowship with other believers. I am not saying that being separate from the Body should be encouraged, I am just wondering how accurate it is to say that someone that is separate from church going (like I was) is not a believer. If I were to have gotten in an accident on my way to work and I died, I would certainly hope that my lack of attendence wouldn't be held against me and completely sever myself from eternal fellowship with God. Am I making any sense?
Jeanette,
I'm talking about intentional separation, not temporary circumstances. You could be marooned on an island as well, and no it wouldn't endanger your soul.
We need not be pharisaical about the point - The intention of the heart to commune with other believers is the idea here. And, just as importantly, some type of submission to the needs and goals of a church body larger than yourself.
Yet another interesting passage to look at is 2 Timothy 3.16-17. Look at what Paul says that Scriptures are good for. Keep in mind that at the time there were only scrolls, and in limited numbers, available almost exclusively for worship use by a community (only a few wealthy individuals had access to private scrolls). The point is, to do any of the things Paul says that we use Scripture for required community.
:)
roland,
ok, I see what you are saying. Crud, this form of dialogue can get confusing!
Anyway, I agree, nicely put.
it feels like each day i find another blog by another "higher-up" at vintage. its weird.
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