i got into an interesting discussion last night with a friend of mine who has been a christian since before he can remember. i had just come home from a loooooong day with vintage: we had had a full set of prayer stations in the gathering, a musical guest in the coffeehouse, 9 church leaders visiting from Michigan and on top of it, i was sick. all i wanted to do when i got home was have some soup and crash into bed, but God seemed to have other plans for me.
before i could collapse into bed, i ended up getting into quite a discussion with this friend of mine. basically, he shared with me that though he knows he isn't on top of things spiritually right now, it doesn't seem to be affecting him the way he thought it would. he is young, attractive and living the life of a normal 20-something guy... which involves sex, drugs and rock n' roll. now, fair enough, everyone goes through their rebellious stages and luckily, this guy has steered clear so far of pregnancy, std's, drunk dialing/driving, etc.
as we continued to talk, we got into a fascinating dialogue about the fact that though this person knows what he should be doing for God and understands that he is being tempted, it is easier for him to just sort of brush that under that rug and live the way he wants to, since, at this point, there haven't been any major consequences for the ways he is living. i mean, it would be different for him if some drastic, terrible consequence had occurred because of the way he has been living, but all he seems to be experiencing right now is a dull sense that he isnt living for God and a whole lot of immediate gratification for acting on his impulses and doing what feels good.
without going into super-detailed description of our talk, i guess i just wanted to raise this up, as think it is a really interesting thing to ponder: what do you do when sin seems to yield no consequence? when living out of your own impulses and desires feels better than living in obedience to God and you can't see why you should hold yourself back if nothing bad will happen to you?
i have a lot of thoughts on this, but (in the style of Rob and MM) i would love to hear what some of YOU all think?
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I would say the best understanding about this issue would come straight from the scripture found in Hebrews that discusses this regarding the child of God and the one who isn't a child of God and how God handles them regarding sin.
Great post and great question. I have thoughts... not sure how profound... but...
1. Of course, you don't know what the future of sin brings... will you one day reap what you sow? But God is rarely this linear, we all know the "wicked" sometimes prosper...
2. I have found that sin has an opportunity cost... at least for me... that is often unknown. So what is the "cost" of my lack of obedience? It's not just the "cost" of sin, but I lose out in other ways as God wants to bless obedience.
All of that is to say... I'm not sure there is a clear, clear answer to this. But a great question
Hi Kristin, I have visited your blog quite a few times and I just want to start out by saying how much I love your many heartfelt posts! I wish I had a fast response to your question. It is a tough one. I do know, like a lot of us, Christians who have been lost to stds, entered an unexpected world with pregnancies outside of marriage, been at the wrong place at the wrong time, etc. Living a lifestyle outside of God’s desire for us may or may not have clear ramifications like these. I do think, however, that our time granted here can have a profound impact on the lives yet to know Jesus as well as give us the most radical love we will ever know in Him. Sure, we are all lost, all scalawags, unworthy humans that can’t do a darn thing to earn ourselves a ticket to the big circus in the sky. (My dream of heaven:) But, in the realization that there is a huge spiritual combat going on around us everyday, may give some perspective. It does for me. I think that there may be things that go unnoticed in our lives as a result of how we are living and all we can ever do is our best (such as the could-be-convert close to us). We won’t know completely until we cross over into that perfect place what might of or could of if only (blank), but living in the grip of God is the closest thing to knowing I think there can be…
In Galatians, Paul speaks about this exactly...
Specifically, Galatians 5:13
13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love
NIV
Galatians 5:16-17
16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
NIV
The bible seems to be quite clear as to what to do:
Galatians 6:1
Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
NIV
While I understand what Paul (blogger Paul, not apostle Paul) means by not knowing what the future of sin brings, in the long run though, it's quite clear:
Galatians 6:7-8
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
NIV
It is unfortunate how that all works out.
I agree with blogger Paul on his second part as well: there is a profound opportunity cost. There are huge monetary costs of sin:
- the cost birth control and other sexually-active related products
- the cost of alcohol, have you ever bought a girl a drink a bar? expensive my friend
- the cost of cigarettes, cigars, tobacco, (insert your favourite smoking substance here), etc.
- the cost of drugs, not cheap (there is a reason why the drug lords are rich)
[note: I am not here to say smoking and drinking are necessarily bad, but the excess ain't so great]
In addition to monetary costs, there is the time cost: what could I have been doing rather than doing any of that other stuff? It's always hard to say, can you certainly say what would have happened if you didn't?
One that certainly can't be accounted for is the types of people you'll meet. There will certainly be people that you meet in various places, but who's to say how God will use that.
I mean, you've got Paul, a guy that was persecuting Christians, yet God used him for good.
Perhaps the most important thing to consider is that we need to hate the sin but love the sinner... and also to realize that we're all sinners. What can you do but leave it up to God to say what happens next... while you should take care of your brother (with caution as it says in Galatians, lest you fall to the sin as well), you must also remember that only you will give an account for yourself at the end:
1 Peter 4:5
But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
NIV
With that said (and nothing profound said but fluff), just love your brother and hope and pray for God's wisdom and discernment as to what to do next.
No, I am not a trained theologian nor biblical scholar... I'm just a guy trying to figure this out too.
Gim - great scriptures! One thing, “One that certainly can’t be accounted for is the types of people you’ll meet. There will certainly be people that you meet in various places, but who’s to say how God will use that….I mean, you’ve got Paul, a guy that was persecuting Christians, yet God used him for good.” You are right about that, however, according to chapter 9 of Acts, Paul (then Saul) lost his sight on the road to Damascus (this may be inferred as a chastisement) and God was able to use him after he repented. Once Saul (Paul) was saved, he was then able to be used for good. A considerable part of his ministry was to encourage the believers to follow after righteousness and the doctrine of Jesus Christ and not to return to their sinful life.
My concern with a one-sided approach that “yes, God can make good out of bad” is the spiritual warfare I spoke of earlier. Can not the enemy also use what he will for his benefit? In Ephesians 6: 10 - …. it says, “Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms….”
In John 15:5 Jesus says, “ I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.” I think that God can do some pretty powerful stuff in the believer that is available to be used as an instrument. Without making this a long dissertation, my point is that our lives do impact others whether we want to believe it or not. A lot of people today don’t even know what is right or wrong any more. Or if there is such a thing as wrong. And a lot of people are searching. Impressionable. In need of role models. While our ultimate role model is Christ, non-believers need to see tangible models. Because when we don’t get our fill in life, it is the driving force of God’s love that ultimately slakes our thirst. People need to see that. A life that loves God and others so much, they are eager to take up their cross and follow. Because God is enough.
Of course, no disciple is without their faults. I’m not implying by any means that any of us pattern our lives after the self-righteous Pharisees! I’m just saying that God can accomplish so much more through us when we are obedient.
"can not the enemy use what he will for his benefit" - NO he can only use as God allows him to - Example:Job and there are others that reveal this same reality. Satan is not co-equal to God!
Just a clarification....
When I wrote, "we don't know what the future of sin brings" I'm saying that we don't ALWAYS suffer the direct consequences of our sin. Even on an eternal level, if we are in Christ, there is no condemnation.
Great thoughts... and Kristin, we are hoping you will share your thoughts eventually as you know the situation.
anonymous - I agree. I believe God is the Almighty...definitely don't think He is co-equal to anyone.
Kristin - I too am hoping to read what you think!
Paul - excellent clarification on about the consequences of sin, and I think that is what our friend Kristin is trying to figure out.
Jeanette - that is a good point about Paul/Saul. It wasn't until after he repented that he started to do good. I suppose what I was really trying to get at was that it's hard to say what God has in store.
I generally go to these particular passages when I have no idea what God is doing in my life:
Isaiah 55:8
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
NIV
Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
NIV
Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
NIV
What I get from this, and especially from the Ephesians 6 verse is that life isn't guaranteed to be a happy-go-lucky time, that we are waging a war that we can't see with our eyes but can feel with our very souls.
And given that spiritual warfare is abound, when particular events happen, is it because the Enemy is trying to suppress us, bring us down and knock us out? Or is it God trying to build us up and shape us to depend more on Him? Or maybe it's a combination of both. As it was mentioned by anonymous, that God doesn't let anything happen He doesn't want to happen.
So how do you wrap your noodle around suffering, or something like a death of a family member, close friend or relative?
Personally, I have seen my grandmother pass away. She was not a believer and it hit me particularly hard. While I was trying to figure out why this would happen at this juncture, I found out later that my cousins from overseas had been exploring Christianity, and were asking me questions about it.
Now, they have started a Christian band and I have found other relatives that are believers, when at first I thought I was the only one.
The point is that out of this terrible situation came a particularly good one. In a similar manner with Saul being a terrible person, repenting, and having the results of that affect us to this very day.
How does this apply to Kristin's friend? I'm not sure, but then again, my tiny little mind is trying to figure out what God's infinite plan is... and it's futile.
Well Kristin, at some point you'll definitely have to share your thoughts :)
by the way, I haven't responded to your MATCH POINT comment yet, been a bit nuts. But I did finally find a renter down here (thank the Lord), so I'm driving back up tomorrow hopefully for good. Regardless, time has been a bit short for blogging...
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Anyway, just read this post and haven't had time to read everyone's responses yet, but...
my initial thought is that sinning is fun. living in sin is fun, it feels good, and satisfies some desire within us. The problem is that only in Christ will we find the living water we truly crave, so when we're living in sin, the pleasure is always short-lived so we keep needing more and more to stay satisfied. Unfortunately though, in the short term, sin IS pleasurable, so it's pretty easy to ignore God, because living for the Lord is a long-term investment, often at the expense of short-term "fun" or pleasure. To be sure, we can find great pleasure and satisfaction in Christ, but it is of a different sort, a sort that denies the sin within us and thus will always engender a struggle between our sinful selves and Christ within us. And that struggle is often difficult, and rarely fun. Living in sin allows us to fully surrender to the desires of our flesh, so it does away with the struggle.
So getting at your question, living in sin is far easier than living for Christ. Living for the flesh is a lot more fun than dying to the flesh. We humans are short-sighted creatures in a long-sighted eternity. We think we see no consequences because the consequences are at most a few decades in the future. I would argue that we are incapable of seeing the stakes on our own, because sinning is too easy, to pleasurable in the short-term, and we are too weak to resist it. What do you do when there seem to be no consequences? What do you do when it's easier to live for your flesh than for God? You pray. You pray that the Lord would open your eyes or the eyes of those you love, that he would rescue you from the pit of your sin and short-sightedness and give you a heart set on eternal reward rather than fleeting sinful pleasures. I do not think we are capable of this on our own, it is a gift of grace, from God. And in its absence, I think all we can do is beg the Lord to provide it. To reach down and rescue us, rescue those we love, from the pit. Otherwise as soon as the next sinful desire rises within us our eyes will grow hungry and wide as we again forget just what it is we were so wound-up about to begin with.
Just my two cents.
One small observation - has he considered that sin is almost always communal rather than individual in nature?
Our misbehaviors under the influence and the hearts and souls we jade with promiscuous sex aren't exactly non-issues. Think for instance of meeting the husband of a girl he's slept with... that has to feel a little bit like usury (if not for him for the husband), unless jealousy is a total non-emotion... but I don't really buy that.
in any case, it seems that he's primarily considering how much harm he has or hasn't done in the short term and with an egocentric outlook rather than in the long term with the eye trying to make out effects on others who our sin has touched.
tata
-Ray
i have been sick and i am moving in a couple days, so cant read everything--BUT.... i wanted to thank everyone for commenting and I LOVE that we are dialoguing, this is my first blog discussion like this, and i am excited :) i pray that out of this discussion, i can speak some words of truth to my friend and encourage him along the way of jesus :)
more soon...
Everyone - wonderful insights!
Gim - I am so sorry about your grandmother. It is hard to see loved ones go through life without knowing Jesus; and then to part with them. But I am so glad that some of your other relatives were brought to the Light through this situation. I hope that more still will do so. And Jeremiah 29:11 is especially meaningful to me and my family. Thanks for sharing.
Kristin - I hope that you feel better soon and that this discussion gives you the answers you need while enabling you to uplift your friend. God Bless
It is a matter of how you view your relationship with God. Do you obey him out of fear? Or do you obey him out of love? Sin is bad for us. But sin IS the punishment. Sin is seperation from God. What could be worse than that? Sin is usually self serving. Nobody sins for the benefit of others. A life of sin is self focused and self gratifying. It is a lonely, delusional existence. But if you obey God and avoid sin you will have a rich life. Take sex, for example. Sex out of wedlock is self gratifying, it serves your immediate needs. It objectifies your partner, who exists only for your pleasure. With each partner you lose a little more of yourself. Sex becomes routine, it's sacred nature is trampled underfoot, is profaned. Sex within marriage is deep, meaningful, fulfilling. It is good for you. It is a precious gift from God, right and true. What is the punishment for sexual sin? It IS the sexual sin. It hurts you. It seperates you from God and his right intent for you.
Apply this concept to evangelism and an interesting contrast arises. You can attempt to evangalize somebody through fear and coercion, "God will punish you for your sins if you don't convert to my religion." Or you can evangelize through example, where your actions say that "I try to live in harmony with God. I avoid sin, and my life is rich, fulfilling and rewarding. My joy can be your joy, walk with Jesus and you will recieve it." Which approach is more convincing? Which lifestyle is more beneficial for everyone? A life of fear, or a life of love?
I have a sinful past. I have been in some dark places. I came back to the Lord and my life changed. Dramatically. I am becoming the person I am meant to be. I obey God because I want to be near Him, because I love Him. And I am rewarded. My life is rich and meaningful. Every day is a blessing. I gave up control, I quit satisfying my sinful desires, and my reward was great. I do not fear punishment. I do fear losing my connection with God, and this is what keeps me away from sin. Sin has lost it's appeal. I am loyal to God out of love, not fear.
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment."
-Jesus (Mt 22:37-38)
Lucas - great questions! Do we obey God out or fear or out of love? I have grown up in a Christian home and it wasn't until recently that I grasped this concept. It really hits the root of our relationship with God. Through our brokeness, knowing that God loves us despite our shortcomings and allows us to start each day anew...never tallying up our sins, never condemning us. Showing the same favor on all of us, no matter what we do. Wow, once that is realized, we can be free to come to Him and love Him all the more. Because He loved us first. Then take flight and show this love to others. I came across this verse the other day, "By this all men know that ye are My disciples, if ye have love one for another." John 13:35.
"I do not fear punishment. I do fear loosing my conncetion with God, and this is what keeps me away from sin." Also a great example!
Hmm, only one qualifier:
Proverbs 1:
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction. 8 Hear, my son, your father's instruction, and reject not your mother's teaching; 9 for they are a fair garland for your head, and pendants for your neck. 10 My son, if sinners entice you, do not consent.
I think it's good to have a healthy fear of God. I don't think the Psalmist is referring to intimidation per se, but rather to the disposition of having a healthy respect that God will hold us accountable for hearkening to his Will when He so desires.
Roland - I too think a healthy fear and respect of the Lord is important. Unfortunately, it is an unhealthy fear that keeps a person from entering into a full relationship with God. This verse speaks volumes,
1 John 4:18: "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."
What do you mean by "entering into a full relationship"? either you are a child of God or you are not. You can't be alittle bit pregnant!
Being Unregenerate/In sin not fear prevents relationship. Healthy fear if you are in Christ will come as transformation takes place; it is progressive not instantaneous. 1 John 3:2
Anonymous - please bear with me, I am not the greatest communicator. You are right, we are children of God when we receive Christ. Our relationship is progressive. And another great verse by the way. When I wrote “full” relationship I probably should have put “a mature” relationship. My input about an unhealthy fear comes from my own personal experience with it. So, from my stand point with my relationship with God, it has been stationary for many years because I was constantly banging my head against the wall trying to earn God’s love. I kept Him at a distance because I imagined Him to be sitting in a monolith of an intimidating chair watching my every move, hard and stoic, ready to strike me down at any moment. I was afraid of Him. That is unhealthy. Now I know that God wants me to be able to come to Him with anything. He actually wants to share in my joys and sorrows and embrace me… imperfections and all. He used to be my worst critic, now He is my loving Father. Understanding more about grace and how that relates to me as a sinner has allowed me to feel like I can walk along side Him in this thing called life (in a developing relationship). Not behind Him with His face forever turned away…while I struggle on my own wasted merits to keep up and work my way closer. As a sinner, I feel remorse for my sins, but once I repent, I don't need to lug them around with me. God never stops giving me chances. There is a huge freedom with that. Not to live a wreckless life just because I can...but to stop searching for a perfection that I will never attain here. I think that people grow best when they are encouraged through love. You can wip a horse to make his way to the top of a mountain all you want, but he won't do very well if he isn't nourished along the way.
Kristin - I apologize for taking up so much blog space!
I think Roland makes a good point. One which I agree with. I might add proverbs 8:13, "To fear the Lord is to hate evil." I think this helps us begin to pin down a better definition of what it means to "fear" the Lord. I don't think it's the same "fear" being spoken of in 1 John 4:18, Jeanette.
One other point. Lucas, I have to disagree with you when you say that "sin IS the punishment." Apart from the fact that if sin itself were punishment I don't think it would be as attractive, I also don't think this is scriptural.
cf. James 1:14-15 "14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."
Death is in fact the punishment for sin, not sin itself.
I also don't agree that "sin is separation from God." Sin causes separation from God, and apart from God we are powerless against sin, but sin itself is something distinct. Notice in the Garden, Adam and Eve did not cut themselves off from God, and thus commit a sin. Rather, they sinned and were thereby cut off from God.
Annonymous, as for your most recent comment, you might check out 1 Cor. 3:1-3 (in context) and Hebrews 5:11-13. Paul speaks here of spiritual maturity, and I think it is a useful comparison to the idea of a "full relationship" with Christ you bring up. One can have a relationship with Christ without having a full one.
"12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness." Hebrews 5:12-13
"1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?" 1 Cor. 3:1-3
I think these are two examples of people having relationships with Christ that are not nearly as "full" or rich as they could be. In my own life this has also been the case. I went through a rebellious period when I had nothing close to a "full relationship" with Christ, but I was still a believer and thus still had a relationship with Him, however faded and weak.
Further, do not all of us have areas of our lives that are not as rich and full with Christ as they could be? I know I do.
I don't think salvation is an automatic ticket to a full relationship with Christ. A full relationship is something we hopefully grow toward in this life as we are sanctified and become more and more like Him, but it is not even something we ever fully achieve until death.
Just my two cents.
I'm new to this whole blogging/discussing thing here, so to everyone who has been participating in this discussion, pardon my intrusion. A lot of great things have been said, especially by "mm" and "jeanette". But Kristen, I had a friend in high school who said almost those exact words to me once. We grew up in the same youth group together and I had asked him to share his testimony with me and after he admitted not knowing how, I challenged him to ask himself if he had ever come to a point where he had accepted Christ into his life. After thinking about it, he said no, he never had. So of course I jumped on the van wagon and said "Well, you know how to! Don't you want to change that right now?!" (being the innocent naive person I was back then). That is when he blatantly said that he didnt want to because honestly, he was enjoying his sin too much and knew that if he was to admit he needed Christ that he would have to "stop having fun". Now, I was flabber-gasted by this. How could anybody KNOW the consequences of sin and of not accepting Christ and still refuse Christ? To this day I can't understand it. But he did. And no matter how I tried to convince him, nothing would work. So... I began to pray. It's all I could do. I knew I couldn't change him. No amount of lecture or heart-wrenching talks could change his heart. I know you know that very fact. I guess I'm just trying to encourage you to continue to be the light that God has told us to be.
"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven" Matt. 5:16
Like I said, I'm not an expert on these things, but in matters of the heart, sometimes all we can do is what WE know what to do, and that is to try to live a life holiness and to bring those we love before God. I know it's been said time and time again, but there is SUCH a power in prayer. That's what I did with my friend, and to God be the glory, a few years later he accepted Christ into his life. He still struggles with some things from time to time, as do we all, but I can see the change in him now, especially after God did some heavy duty "look at me" kinda stuff. He looks back now and hits himself for how much time he wasted living for himself. But sometimes, we have to go through the fire to understand how badly we need to be saved from it.
I can't help but feel I did a poor job at trying to say anything of use, but I will say I am praying for you and for your friend that you can be a light to him to point him to Christ and that he would be humble and strong enough to want to live a life that is glorifying to God. God bless my sister~
AHHH!!! Wow, i was just able to get through all the comments and i am blown away :) This is great, i have to say i am so impressed with everyone's thoughtful input on this topic. it has given me a ton to think about.
first i want to just say how impressed and greatful i am for the healthy, honoring discussion thats happened, with each person respectfully stating their opinion/thoughts and reasons behind them, without attacking or belittling each other. so great! you have all covered so much, i don't know where to begin...
i agree with jeanette's and rolands comments (and i think others echoed this), that the sin we commit does affect other people and that is of great concern... i love jeanette's comment on this: "that our time granted here can have a profound impact on the lives yet to know Jesus as well as give us the most radical love we will ever know in Him."
Gim: thanks for that scripture, when i read it, i was struck. sometimes when we re-read scripture at just the right time, it totally hits the spot. these are perfect and explain a lot of what i was trying to articulate that night. a few months prior to my convo with this friend, i was talking about romans 7 and ended up reading it to him, specifically "18I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn, I can't make myself do right. I want to, but I can't. 19When I want to do good, I don't. And when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. 20But if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing it; the sin within me is doing it."
he was so struck by it, he wrote it down. so it seeems that there is some conviction going on in him somewhere.
i also agree with paul and gim about the "opportunity cost" involved... we studied in our last series at VFC a little about standing before God and giving an account of what we did with our lives... though this friend may technically be "saved", he is given this opportunity to live a life for God and to do God's work on earth and one day he will have to give an account (that concept is still somewhat of a mystery, i need to study it a bit more). I even asked my friend what kind of life he wanted to live... like when he was old, did he want to look back and say "i had fun and did what i want" or "i made a difference for God and in the lives of people around me"
I like that jeanette brought in the concept of spiritual warfare in this and while i totally believe that God is above all (even the enemy), but i think that he warns us about the battle raging around us. Even though we know the outcome, we are still to fight the enemy and to arm ourselves against his lies. it seems like with my friend, he is walking the lines of mediocrity and doesnt want to chose a side.
i often struggle with the idea of christians as role models. i know that with my family who dont believe in christ, i struggle with revealing my own weakness and faults, like if i was a "super christian", they would somehow believe and be saved, you know? i do think we are to be obedient, and the longer of stumble after christ, the more i am learning about my own weak spots and how to recognize them before they get me in trouble. i think its just so important to not make our own purity and righteousness the beacon for hope above God (which i am guilty of doing, for sure). my mentor loves to remind me that we (christians) are just thirsty beggars who have found a well to drink from and that our job is to lead other thirsty beggars to the well so they know where to drink from. humble purity is the way forward, i think :)
gim: thanks for those other scriptures, too, especially the one of his thoughts as higher than ours... perfectly humbling, i LOVE that scripture. and i am sorry about your grandmother, too. man, i am sorry-- that must be rough, but i am so glad you can see God already redeeming others in your family. love you, awan.
mm: i like your first reaction because it is so darn true. sin IS fun, at times. And i have SO been there in my own life when i was sinning a lot, repenting and then sinning in the same way all over again. I am sure we have all been there. And i think you make SUCH a strong point that living for christ isnt this peachy keen, fun all the time, smiley faces and bright lights kind of life. I have tried to be REALLY conscious of this reality when i talk with people in my life who dont know God. Because life ISNT perfect the minute you commit yourself to Him. Christians have the same pain, the same troubles, the same heartache. BUT we have Christ as an anchor, a guidepost, a reason, a safety in the storm. Not a crutch, per say, but as far more. Its hard to articulate, but i hope you are getting what i am saying here. Mm, this is a great quote to sum it up...“We humans are short-sighted creatures in a long-sighted eternity”, quite the CS Lewis, aren’t we? And i think your answer of PRAYER is great and perfect (and Chelsea’s answer, too). Vintage is doing a series on prayer right now and i am being reminded all the time of its subtle, yet enormous power.
Lucas: thanks for being so open about your own life. I agree with you about sin being so concerned with self... this is such a reality. As i observed and spoke with my friend over the next week after our conversation, i saw so many areas of selfishness in his life and realized how very little he seemed to care or notice other people. Selfishness is such poison and he is dying to it. I think your point about the sin being punishment and mm’s point about sin being the cause of death (which is punishment) is interesting. I really resonate with lucas’ point that there are some natural ramifications we feel as we sin (such as sexual sin making us feel separate from God) and i have often made the point to people that God asks us not to sin, most times because in our sin, we cause pain to ourselves and those around us. I can also see mm’s side of things here, since scripture does point out that consequence of sin is death. Is sin the action? Is sin the consequence? I would like to hear more from you both on this, or maybe we can take it to another post, as its a big, fat issue :)
Mm: i think your point about our maturity being a process is excellent in light of your previous comments on the long-sighted eternity. Its that fun sanctification thing we all get to go through.... i often think about that fact that in my early faith, i could only wrap my head around my justification (me being justified by christs death)... the idea that i would spend the rest of my life being sanctified would have been too much at the time... i needed to ease my way into it.
Chelsea: THANK YOU for your sweet, thoughtful post, your heart is so plain and beautiful, i really appreciate your words and you articulated yourself really well, no worries :) i totally resonate with trying SO HARD to convince someone of something, and feeling like you have failed if you haven’t “won” them to what you think. Its all about that surrender and trust that God will work it out. And praise God about your friend coming back to God, that is amazing. Your situation sounds really really similar, and i will pray it has a similar outcome, and sooner, rather than later.
Anyways, you have ALLLLL been amazing and your hearts are beautiful. I love it. I really wasnt into the whole “blogging community” thing, but you have all sort of won me over, thanks :)
Kristin,
I think you need to work at saying what you really think. I mean, I think you're holding back.
:)
Naturally I kid. Excellent synthesis. I'm looking at getting my PhD in Systematic Theology - I'm thinking I should just copy/paste you, add some references, and turn it in to the advisor. ^^
Kristin - I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on all of this. And, I especially love your insights about humble purity. Well said!
Just a clarification:
Mm - If you go back to what I originally wrote it may be more clear as to what I was alluding to. I spoke of an unhealthy fear, not a healthy fear. So the scripture I used was to demonstrate that difference. I understand the fear of the Lord that Roland spoke of (and I completely agree with it). Job 28:28, “The fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, and to depart from evil is understanding.” a verse explaining it…like the one you gave. In Proverbs 14:9 it says that “Fools make a mock of sin.” It is to my understanding that the term “fool” in Proverbs has something of a specialized usage…”sinner”. Meaning that sinners deride holiness (correct me if I’m wrong, I‘m not a theologian). So as a believer, we are to have reverence for God, to stay away from sin (to put it simply). The added point I was trying to illustrate is that once we are believers, once we are filled with the Holy Spirit, with love, we will be able to approach the thrown with boldness because we are saved. No longer sinners (“sinners” in the sense that we are condemned). 1 John 4:18 speaks of there being no fear in love. I was trying to show the difference between a healthy fear of the Lord (described by Roland) and an unhealthy fear. Which produce two different things. One reverence and the other recoil. That was all. It seemed relevant at the time any way:)
Kristin,
sin is clearly the infraction, it has consequences, but it is not the consequence in and of itself. Sin from a Christian point of view is not "lack of virtue" in a philosophical sense, wherein lacking that virtue would be a self-imposed penalty. that's more or less Platonism (as Socrates often reminds his chat partners - Something IS beatiful, and if you can't see it then maybe you're lacking the virtue of sight!).
Hence "the consequence of sin is death".
I guess if you really wanted to press on the analogy you could say that sin is its own consequence in the sense that all sin WILL have consequence by necessity, since it is necessarily on the side of falsehood. But in the easiest sense, there are too many syllogisms in scripture that work like "you did X" "therefore Y will occur". Saying that sin is its own penalty seems to conflate X and Y in the equation beyond what is scripturally sanctioned.
Jeanette, thanks for the clarification. Sounds like we more or less agree.
Roland, I was gonna respond to what you just wrote. But...I pretty much just agree. Well put.
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